"Scientists don't usually throw eggs"    

Nachrichten aus der Chemie: Hearing your talk about the ribosome yesterday at the Lindau Nobel Prize winners meeting, I thought to myself, there aren't many chemists who can muster such enthusiasm about a molecule! Are your feelings for the ribosome in some sense romantic?

Ada Yonath: I never thought about it quite that way, but maybe that's they way they've become. I love the work. I also love the pictures of the ribosome, its aesthetics - it's simply very, very pretty. I'm not sure I can really love a molecule. But I certainly loved the research we did on the ribosome: the way we came to understand its function has been very exciting for me right along.

Nachrichten: It took you two decades of ribosome research to comprehend its structure. Looking back, it seemed to be very straightforward from the start. But there must have been a lot of frustrations.

Yonath: Yes. There were indeed difficult times, a lot of frustration. Sometimes journalists ask me if I suffered any emotional breakdowns. But fortunately I did not.

Nachrichten: How about your co-workers? Your students?

Yonath: Could be, because they had to get their degrees. But when problems occurred I managed to explain to the committees what the special difficulties of this project were. Everyone ended up getting the PhD except one woman who decided to have a family. But of course there were difficult times doing research on the ribosome, and at least twice I thought we should stop and look for something else. Nevertheless, I was constantly searching for ways to solve the problems. You see, my life up to the time of the ribosome was so difficult anyway that no ribosome-related problem seemed anything like a real disaster.

Nachrichten: You're referring now to real-life difficulties?

Yonath: Yes. For example, during the War of Independence we lived for four months in a basement with five other families while my mother was nursing a baby. My grandmother was killed. My uncle died. These are real disasters! And my family was poor - very poor. After my father died, all I had was my mother. She spoke many languages but had almost no education. When I was 12, I discovered that she didn't know what a percentage is. Can you imagine? The only person you have in the world and you have to teach her what you learn in the fourth grade. In order to study I had to work, even during highschool. So every step forward made me happy. My curiosity was unshaken. Finally determining the structure of the ribosome was just a very nice bonus.

Nachrichten: But you said that twice you considered switching to a less complicated molecule.

Yonath: I had a very small laboratory in Israel. I was the only crystallographer in the country: imagine! The only one in the whole country. So I had this small lab, and there was no way to express proteins. From a practical standpoint, I just didn't think I could deal with something like ribosomes.

Don' be afraid of important projects

Nachrichten: You have mentioned that Israel is a small country. Was your reason for going to Germany, for example, to use the synchrotron at DESY?

Yonath: Yes, it was. But using a synchrotron was not the main problem: I was able to take measurements in America and Germany as well. The problem at that time was my original mind-set that said: We are a small country, so we should do research projects suitable to a small country. But this was wrong, because in science self-restriction is wrong. Your projects have to be important; they must be significant. All that matters is the scientist's powerful, overwhelming curiosity. If your curiosity is strong enough you will find a way - even in a small country, even without money.

Nachrichten: Today Israel "thinks big" when it comes to science. The Weizmann Institute is known as one of the best research institutes in the world, and several Israelis have won the Nobel Prize. However, the brain-drain is an issue in Israel as well, I believe.

Yonath: There is brain-drain all over the world. And that's OK. Because science is not local: it must be international. The central problem is to educate people. For a small country like Israel, educating people is a significant commitment. And then to lose more than 50 percent to the rest of the world - no wonder people feel frustrated! In my view, the country doesn't offer enough opportunities for young people to do competitive research. I think the country should give this some thought.

Nachrichten: You worked several years at a Max Planck Research Unit in Hamburg at DESY, while working at the Weizmann Institute in Israel at the same time. Are they comparable?

Yonath: This is a very difficult question. First of all, the Weizmann Institute is also a graduate school whereas the Max Planck Society has to get in touch with universities for attracting candidates as doctoral students. Max Planck Society therefore cannot influence the standard of knowledge of their young co-workers but must depend on the university education they have already had. On the other hand, the Max Planck directors, even a semi-director as I was, have allotted to them a certain number of co-workers, money, material to dispose of, square meters of space and money for infrastructure. At the Weizmann you can apply for all of these, but most of it has to be financed from outside. In my opinion, the unique thing about the Max Planck Society is its technicians. You can find four or five technicians in one lab, in one group. That's very important, because technicians are people of continuity. They maintain that continuity, the understanding of how experimental methods and measurements work, and they can explain all this to students.

Nachrichten: Back in 1980, if you hadn't decided to research the ribosome - what would you have chosen?

Yonath: I would have written a book. I have wanted to write all my life.

Nachrichten: A science book?

Yonath: No: novels. If I had decided I could not do anything significant in science - and it doesn't have to be the Nobel Prize to be significant - I would have written.

Biological question - chemical answer

Nachrichten: Last year you won the Nobel Prize for chemistry. However, there were people who said: "Oh no, not another Nobel Prize for biology!"

Yonath: Well, disappointed people are nothing new when it comes to the Nobel Prize. It's the same every year. But what you quote is really unfair when it comes to the ribosome. The question at hand is indeed biological, since it's about a life process, but the answer lies in chemistry. And this therefore makes the question a chemical issue as well. When we investigated the ribosome we didn't care (well, we did care, but anyway we didn't study) whether the bacteria grow or not and how they interact with the environment. We looked at how peptide bonds were formed and how molecules were selected. What could be more chemical than that?

Nachrichten: The topic of the Lindau Meeting this year is interdisciplinary as well. So your research fits perfectly: you had biological questions, chemical answers and physical methods. Has dividing science into branches become out-dated?

Yonath: Yes and no. Categories offer orientation, but in the end science means answering questions, not categorising them. Traditional categorising may be old-fashioned, but new categorisations may run into problems, too. The possibility of connecting things that seem unconnected is more important than categorising science as, say, biology or chemistry.

Nachrichten: Here in Lindau there are 62 Nobel Prize winners from very specialised branches of the whole sciences.

Yonath: Mathematics is missing. Nachrichten: That's true. But at least they have the Fields Medal, their own Nobel Prize, as it were. Yonath: Not my decision. I'd like to have mathematicians in the Nobel family as well.

Nachrichten: Is there a branch of science you have problems understanding?

Yonath: Everything that is not the ribosome. And even the ribosome I don't fully understand. The question of what understanding or knowing is, is very relative. If I ask a fifth- grader what DNA is, they'll tell me everything they have learned at school. They believe they now know this. But a professor with a Nobel Prize for DNA interactions may freely admit that he by no means knows everything about DNA.

The difference between science star and pop star

Nachrichten: As a Nobel Prize winner you are almost like a pop star ...

Yonath: Not exactly. If I were a real pop star, we couldn't sit here on Lake Constance and have an interview without the paparazzi hunting us down. Madonna - the pop singer - was just in Israel, where she drew an audience of 70 000. In this hall here in Constance I speak to about 700.

Nachrichten: Does the idea of speaking to 70 000 people about the ribosome - maybe in a football stadium - appeal to you?

Yonath: Maybe 70 people would come. Besides, nobody would pay to hear about the complex nature of the ribosome. I don't think I'd like to be a pop star exactly. Stars in art in general - in theatre, concerts, in music - are stars because everyone in the audience thinks they can appreciate what the star does. If the artist on the stage doesn't perform the way the crowd wants them to, people boo or throw eggs. In my case, it may be that not all scientists have a high regard for my research, but at least they are my peers and they can judge me as scientists. Besides, scientists don't usually throw eggs.

Nachrichten: Which field would be your favourite for the next Nobel Prize in chemistry? We will only print your answer if you prophesy correctly ...

Yonath: My prophecy will be correct, all right! Science would be my favourite choice. It will be something in the amazing world of science.